Transcript

Greg Dunaway :
One of the things that I always wanted to get lost in the discussion about all your achievements is the fact that there are, as, you know, a deficit of women in leadership positions. And I would love for you to share just, you know, a quick. A quick. A quick bio for people to understand how you were able to achieve so much and get put in some positions that were. Arguably, the deck was stacked a little against you, if you don't mind sharing a little bit.

Jamie Pearson :
Yeah, no problem. I think. I think the. The most salient point of my journey was that I kind of. I came reluctantly into the cannabis industry and, you know, have a dad who's been cultivating. I'm 55. He's been cultivating 57 years now. He's got PTSD from Vietnam and has not really never drank alcohol.

Jamie Pearson :
He's always used cannabis my entire life. And, you know, 50 years ago, it was really hard to come by, so he just learned how to grow his own. And that was during the war on drugs. And I thought my dad was, you know, I always adored him. He's amazing. He's a great guy. But it was a tough. It was tough being a kid growing up with the dad who, you know, bartered with pot for, you know, construction work or whatever it was.

Jamie Pearson :
So we would always have people coming over to our house. And I just learned from an early age, you know, what I could and couldn't talk about. And so it wasn't that I was anti cannabis. It was that cannabis always had that stigma that we all know and experience, and I just really didn't want to be about it. So I was in real estate investing for a long time, and it was really my cousin DJ Muggs from Cypress Hill. When Cypress started getting a lot of offers as cannabis started legalizing across the United States, he and I had been investing in real estate together, and he's like, you know, help me find the band, a good weed deal. And I just didn't know anything about it, didn't know much about the industry, and really wasn't all that interested in, you know, becoming Queen Stoner or anything. Like, none of that appealed to me, but I would do anything for mugs and, you know, so I was like, look, I'll explore it.

Jamie Pearson :
And it was a way to go do something new. And it was interesting. And the more I got into it, the more I realized the people are amazing. And I, you know, I just have always sort of had a charmed life in. In the sense that I think if your Currency is kindness. It takes you far. And I believe that the world's abundant. I believe there are more opportunities than there is time and money.

Jamie Pearson :
And I'm not afraid to share anything that comes my way or, you know, give someone the shirt off my back if. If they love it. Because ultimately my mom's always taught me that people are more important than things and, and that there's always enough. And so the way I got into cannabis was with that mindset, you know, and it helped that I had already built a business doing real estate investing, amassing a bunch of rentals and. And a property management company. So I had enough passive income coming in that I was never desperate to make cannabis be everything for me. So I think I was able to just be relaxed and kind and, you know, try to welcome everybody into my world, and it served me well. And so what ended up happening with, with Bang is that when I took over, Bang was because the guy that started Bang, or, you know, the two co founders, one of them had exited into a nice deal that, With a company that ended up being Cresco, and the other one stayed on.

Jamie Pearson :
And then after he took Bang public, he just realized that running a public company wasn't for him, and the board asked me to step in. Right place, right time, I guess you would say, or wrong place, wrong time, depending on how you look at it. Because. Because Bang was again, when I got into the leadership role, there was a private equity company that basically had Bang by the short hairs, and there was nothing anyone was going to be able to do. What I was able to do with them was negotiate a little bit more breathing room from underneath the debt that they were holding over our head. And, you know, I was able to get a lot of things done while I was there. But ultimately, you know, when you got a guy pumping and dumping in the background, and that's just not the way I want to do business, you know, it wasn't. It wasn't ultimately going to be a good fit.

Jamie Pearson :
And those decisions and those cards had been played long before I ever showed up. But I really believed in the product. I believed in the brand. You know, I brought mugs in. He helped me with it, and a bunch of his friends helped me with it. And we could have done something much, much bigger and better with it had, you know, we had we not already sold our soul to the devil, so to speak. And, you know, and everyone asked me, like, is Bang still around? And the truth is, they don't speak to me. I have no idea what's Going on with Bang, they, they shut off my email and you know, treated me like I was Persona non grata.

Jamie Pearson :
And you know, I just have that kind of mentality that like, I never signed contracts with New Holland Group for one year, six months, three months. They're always month to month. If you like me, you want to work with me and it's. And I'm. You're getting value and I'm doing something that makes you happy with. We stay in business together. And if for whatever reason you're not happy, cut me loose. Because I think ultimately that's the way I always want to be in business.

Jamie Pearson :
I want to be providing value more than what, what I promise. And you know, so that's kind of, I think a combination of all of that is how I ended up where.

Greg Dunaway :
I'm at and, and talk a little bit about Jimmy because it's so interesting. Your work at New Holland can kind of run the gamut in terms of how you advise and what you do. If you just don't mind level sit everyone like, you know, what does New Holland do? Who might seek you out?

Jamie Pearson :
Definitely companies and brands that are trying to cross borders. I definitely, for seven years at Bang, I kissed frogs. I say, you know, I went into different markets and figured out, you know, who were the players that were serious, who were the players that were serious about, you know, being in the clandestine market. And I think having a combination of those types of Rolodexes is important because you the, the roots and the suits must work together and do work together. Ultimately, when you talk about the genetics that proliferate, it's always going to be the roots that are in the background, you know, kind of controlling what's happening on, on the streets, so to speak. And that's what dictates what happens in retail. So I think kissing frogs out in the world, helping people tap my Rolodex so that they can cross borders, understanding the nuances of which agencies are actually in control because it's not always what it looks to be on, on the surface. I do a lot of coaching of teams.

Jamie Pearson :
So what it never starts that way. But what happens a lot is companies will bring me in for strategy. So they'll usually it's expansion strategy. How do we take what we've built and move it to another market, another state, another nation, whatever it is. And as we start doing the strategy, what usually ends up happening is, you know, I just end up helping them. CEO from an outside looking in perspective, which is super valuable. Wish I had had that when I was running bang. In fact, you know, I did have some friends that were CEOs that were, you know, helping me in the background, but do a lot of that type of work.

Jamie Pearson :
I picked up a cold in London and I'm just getting over happens you're.

Greg Dunaway :
Only gone for what, like four or five weeks?

Jamie Pearson :
Yeah, I tried, I try. If I'm gonna do that, you know, eight hour time difference, I try to be over there for a while so that I'm not having to do jet lag two times in too short of a period of time, you know, because that's what, what ends up getting you sick. So.

Greg Dunaway :
Yeah, yeah, well, I, I, first off, I, I love that and I think there's a lot of people listening who would really benefit from a chat with you. And I hope that if, if there's no, no other takeaway. If you are, if you are someone in the C suite ownership position, ask me for Jamie's number. But I do want to get into a couple key topics that you have really unique, unique insight into when you're looking at the US market. Luckily, I'm sure you get a lot of companies that are doing well and saying, hey Jamie, we want to expand, but also there are a lot of challenges out in the US market. You know, what are you seeing and what are, what are some of the people from your high level C suite seeing in the US market right now?

Jamie Pearson :
So case in point on that, I was the moderator of the international panel at the ICBC Berlin and had a guy that runs the largest pharmaceutical manufacturing company out of Portugal that's producing products into the German market. A lot of those products start as flower that comes out of Canada. So we're a couple of Canadian producers. And one of the things that happened in that conversation that we had was if you're going to skate to where the puck is going, for example, and we use the US market as our benchmark, what you can predict is that price compression is effectively, it's going to happen. It is a race to the bottom. Because what always happens is a country will legalize, they will under anticipate always what is the demand going to be? The demand's always way bigger than what they think because they're basing it on people that are, are communicating to a government how much cannabis they use, how often they use it. There's a lot of people that use cannabis that just are not going to give the government that information. So they're always seeing a fraction of what actually exists when they're doing those types of studies.

Jamie Pearson :
And then, you know, how, and how do you measure the illicit market? How do you measure how much cannabis is actually going in indy into anyone elicit market? Because, you know, some of that has to do with what's seized, some of that has to do with who is arrested, some of that just basically has to do with intake when they go into treatment. You know, these are inexact scientist sciences that you're going to extrapolate your data from. So they legalize, the demand is much higher than they anticipate. And then what happens is they go, oh wow, we got our first batch of tax revenue. We, we like this, we need more of this. And then they open up the floodgates and then you have an oversupply and then people start selling, you know, undercutting each other because they need to get that cash in the door. Because P.S. by the way, as we all know, investment money is hard to come by.

Jamie Pearson :
It no matter. Even in Germany, where cannabis has been federally legalized, investment money in banking is still an issue because the US is the banking tail that's wagging the dog. So everyone's trying to steer clear of getting in trouble with that correspondent banking when you're using the wire system. So you end up having mass amounts of supply, mass amounts of demand, and that ends up compressing prices. So you see in the most mature markets in the US the price per pound is significantly lower than the new markets. And so that's predictable. So what the big players do is they get themselves to a place where they can produce at a, at a price point that nobody else can compete with. And so I would say if you're a mom and pop grower, grab that cash while you can, but know that that price is going to go down.

Jamie Pearson :
So anywhere that you can achieve a better margin when you're growing or, or when you're selling or when you're branding, that's gonna be critical. So a lot of the things that I help companies do is just figure out ways to achieve that extra margin in ways that they maybe haven't thought of. And a lot of that is just being smart in negotiating your contracts so that you can benefit from the economy of scale.

Greg Dunaway :
And you know, it's funny, as you know, I am in the mom and pop grow with Colt and everything. So it's watching it. Even in an arguably healthy market like Eri Arizona, everything you said is absolutely brutal right now. And so one of the other. What's that?

Jamie Pearson :
It's not going to get better.

Greg Dunaway :
Not going to get better. No, no, you better carve your niche out and you better know it. You know what, when you said, you said something really interesting. You said, you know, investment dollars are hard to come by. I know you work on investment. Are there exceptions to those rules, Jamie? Are there U.S. companies that you found that are investable? And what's kind of the. What's kind of maybe the.

Greg Dunaway :
What are you seeing, like the through line between companies that you would say are investable?

Jamie Pearson :
It's funny, I always, when I'm working with clients, it's another thing that New Holland does is we help companies raise money and we don't go out and, you know, solicit the dollars themselves. But what we, and we do make those introductions, you know, where it makes sense, but what we make sure of is that they're pitch deck and that their pitch makes sense because, you know, if you come in and you're like, I've got the new, you know, the better mouse trap and I'm gonna make 50 cents a unit, and then we say, well, what's your, you know, what, what. How much money are you raising? I'm raising $5 million and I'll give you 20% of my company. And you're like, okay, so your company's worth $20 million and how much revenue do you have?

Greg Dunaway :
Zero.

Jamie Pearson :
But I've got this better mousetrap. You know, I think that's what cannabis 1.0 was. When cannabis started legalizing, companies started going public, it was, it was wild west because it wasn't like you had comps and it wasn't like there was examples. So we were all just trying to figure out what was happening. And pounds were selling for $3,000. I wish, you know, that existed back in the day. And, and then as prices started to go down, you know, the good indoor craft weed would still sell for two grand a pound. And in some cases it still does, but that's not, that's not the norm.

Jamie Pearson :
And believe me, that's after somebody has created a strain that people are willing to step up and pay for. Most of it is a commodity, and it's this like, you know, it's a dime of dozen. There's good weed everywhere in the United States. And I know, I notice that when I'm in Europe and, and the good weeds really hard to come by. So I think at the end of the day, if you're the opposite of that, and if you have a better mousetrap and you have a great team and you've got revenue and you've got Demand and you can prove that your growth trajectory is a no brainer. Well, investors will take that hypothesis all day long where your, your valuation is set as at a win win where you're like, I'm raising a million dollars on a five million dollar valuation and I just did five million dollars of revenue. And you want a 1x revenue type of deal and you give an investor a 20% discount because you recognize that that money that pours fuel on your fire. It, it represents your ability to hockey stick your growth rather than, you know, trying to limp along bootstrapped.

Jamie Pearson :
So when you come in and you view your investor as a partner and you make sure that there's value in it for the investor, the investors come out of the woodwork.

Greg Dunaway :
I love it. It is interesting too because one of the things you said about revenue is, and I'm sure there's people who are listening to this who are going to be like, you know what, I'm pre revenue. And, and you know, I think kind of the lesson here, the tough lesson is if you're pre revenue, you're looking at a friends and family raise right now. It just is what it is until you can get to a place where you can, you can show some numbers, you know, put up some numbers, you.

Jamie Pearson :
Know what, and not necessarily, I'll give you one example. I'm, I'm helping a company raise money right now. I can't talk, you know, too much in specifics, but they have a patented product, the patents are worth some money. Obviously they, they went through the double blind, you know, three phase clinical trials and they know for a fact that their product works. They also have Lois in place from companies that will buy this product the minute it's manufactured. And they're buying it at a really high margin. This company's got high margins. And so now you've got your pre revenue but your, your mouse trop is proven.

Jamie Pearson :
And it's proven because you've got purchase orders. Now I can go, I am pre revenue, but I can go to investors and they understand this guy built a business, got his patents, has his Lois in place. I put in a chunk of capital and the next thing that happens is we're off to the races. And so you can even raise money in a pre revenue environment if you have all your ducks in a row and there's little risk to the investor now. And I think that's the piece there is that in North America a lot of investors have lost a lot of money in cannabis and a lot of it isn't that you've got bad, bad apples or bad operators. A lot of it is sometimes we were anticipating safe banking was going to pass. How many times have we heard, oh, this year, same safe banking is going to pass. We have not had legislative support in any way, shape or form.

Jamie Pearson :
They just want to tax us to death, attacks us out of existence, essentially because they're holding their nose to have the legal market. Everyone's afraid that the Feds are going to come in, shut down their banking, and we've all had that happen. So these are legitimate fears. But all these investors that lost money need to take a step back, look in the mirror and say, I got greedy because there was no due diligence. You couldn't do due diligence on some of these things. You were literally blazing a trail. And so I think there needs to be. While the investors are licking their wounds, they also need to take some of the accountability onto their own shoulders.

Jamie Pearson :
Because I do think that part of why everyone lost so much money is everyone was greedy.

Greg Dunaway :
I love it. I love it. And also that is a great, great counterpoint to what I brought up about, about companies pre revenue, because I know a lot of people who are going to be listening to this, you know, are probably in that stage of pre revenue and looking for ways to tell that story.

Jamie Pearson :
One of the other questions, that's what it is, Greg. It's storytelling. And the investor needs to be led down the path to where, first of all, your fundamentals have to be in place. Good product, good team, good hypothesis. If you're solving a problem, the solution has to actually solve a problem. And what I'll tell you, the kiss of death is, is if you have to educate consumers that they, they need to know, they need your product, and you've got to teach them that, that that's tough in this day and age. So, you know, you've got to be in a niche where there's actually money to be made and that it's easy to connect the dots. You tell that story in a succinct way, you can raise money.

Greg Dunaway :
That is awesome. Even in a compressed market, People listen to this. Jamie Pearson is telling you there is money to be had, there is hope at the, there's light at the end of that tunnel. For all you entrepreneurs out there, I want to pivot a little bit because you also have the unique ability to tell us about the similarities and differences in what you're seeing in the EU and specifically German markets. And just so people know, Jamie, not only was she giving keynotes at ICBC Berlin think a smaller version of MJ Bizcon in Berlin. She also was emceeing a much more private event. And to the extent that Jamie, you're willing to tell us a little about that private investor event, I think that would be very fascinating for, for us, sure.

Jamie Pearson :
Tallman House is an organization that connects entrepreneurs who are raising money with investors. They get investors to join the Tallman House. The individual memberships 3, $500, the corporate membership is $5,000 and that allows you entree into the room. And as an investor the reason you want to be in the room is you're in the room with other investors. So if you've already got portfolio companies that you are seek for, then you're in a room full of like minded people who are investing in cannabis. Many of those investors are family offices, high net worth individuals, private equity firms, you know, little bit of VC money. We're starting to see VCs change in nature right now. Some of them are their thesis, like Artemis Growth Partners, they only invest in cannabis.

Jamie Pearson :
But the majority of these investors that are in the room have earmarked money for either high risk or for cannabis specifically because they view it as a wellness play or however that thesis fits into their investment approach. You've got a whole bunch of people in the room. So in Berlin we had about 150 investors in the room. One of the things that they do is they do not allow solicitation. So they're not letting you know the insurance salesman join, write the $3,500 check and and then just go blast everybody trying to sell insurance. It is very serious, an investor meeting only. And then they have pitch contests. And the four companies that pitched, I've done, I've emceed now three of these events and in all three of the events companies that have pitched have gotten funded right out of pitching at that event.

Jamie Pearson :
Now one thing that we do is Talman Group hired New Holland Group to train the people that are pitching. Now some of these people, one of the companies, They've done over 2,000 pitches to investors and that's fine, you're, you're experienced company out raising money, that's one thing. But when we are coaching you, we're coaching you for our event because we know who's coming before you, who's coming after you, what needs to be said, what needs to be left out, what you want to have in your data room. And so what happens when those companies are pitching? They become Tallman portfolio companies. And Tallman has an app, and everyone's communicating with each other on the app, and it's this robust environment around investment in the cannabis space. The cool thing about Talman, all of that's cool, and it's a really fun group of. To be in because it's exciting when you see companies getting funded. And these are, you know, we probably sorted through 40 or 50 pitches and narrowed it down to four companies because we really only want investable companies pitching.

Jamie Pearson :
And these companies are. Are jumping into the European market with some really groundbreaking offerings to investors, because what they have that everyone didn't have in the US is the benefit of the US experience and the benefit of the 20 years that everybody's been doing cannabis in the US so now you've got people sort of cannabis 2.0 recognizing, you know, what not to do and what to do, and the pitches are getting better and better and the companies are getting smarter and smarter, and it's. It's interesting to see how quickly the industry has evolved in the last 10, 20 years. So what I will say lastly is that the difference between the markets is something that we can touch on if you have specific questions about it. But it, it is very different cannabis market in Europe, and you really have to take your American lens off, which is hard to do. The Americans in the room were asking basic questions like, what is gacp? What is eu, gmp? What do those things mean? And, you know, you. You really have to have an understanding of the European market if you want to. If you want to play in that playground.

Greg Dunaway :
Yeah, I completely agree. I feel like, you know, you and I are very lucky in the sense that, you know, I've been. I've been able to. Able to go over and hang out with you and learn from you. And one of the things I think shouldn't be lost on people is they are the way that they. The way that they can kind of view legalization. Right. Or the framework for legalization can vary very, very deeply or very, very, very, very significantly between country to country.

Greg Dunaway :
Everyone is excited about Germany right now, right? Everyone's excited. You know, let's touch on real quick. For some people who might be listening, maybe they're. Maybe they're cultivators, maybe they're equipment vendors, maybe they're just someone who loves cannabis or what are people excited about from Germany? And then we can kind of pivot from there. What, what's exciting about Germany right now, Jamie?

Jamie Pearson :
Well, I think let's just talk basics.

Greg Dunaway :
Yeah.

Jamie Pearson :
I live in Montana. Okay. Montana is bigger than Germany. So really, when you think about Germany, it's about, call it the size of Oregon, I might be off a little bit, but it's probably maybe a little bit bigger than, than the state of Oregon. Close 82 to 85 million people in that small space. And there's an infrastructure of transportation. There's, you know, planes, trains, automobiles. It's easy to get from one spot to another in Europe.

Jamie Pearson :
So it's very compact and very densely populated. So if you are thinking about being in cannabis, when people are trying to conquer the country of Germany, I'm always like, wait, wait, take a step back. What would you be doing if you were conquering the state of Oregon in terms of logistics? Like at bang. We struggled in California. When you think about the type of purchaser in San Francisco and the type of purchaser in LA or San Diego, not the same. But you got to drive seven hours. I would have a salesperson having to drive seven hours from LA to San Francisco and then have to speak a completely different language, cannabis language, because of the things that mattered in San Francisco weren't the things that mattered in Los Angeles. The swag was different.

Jamie Pearson :
Everything was different. And so California is a gigantic landmass, Germany's not a gigantic landmass. And while there are regional differences, you know, they're speaking dialects in the south versus in the north. And you know, you've got the Berlin history with the Berlin Wall and, and eastern East Berlin and eastern Germany, you have all of that history that's different than if you're over in western Germany where, you know, you've got your industrial area. Though the, the areas are different, just like what we have here. You just don't have to travel as far. And they are incorporating cannabis into their medical program in the U.S. you know, another just basic blocking and tackling in the U.S.

Jamie Pearson :
medical, we put air quotes around and it's a parallel system that allows people to get access to cannabis under the guise in. In not guys, but under the premise that using cannabis for something medical. So in many cases that's true. Using it to sleep or to relax or whatever you're using it for. Not just as a social lubricant. But in Germany, it's part of their healthcare system. You go to the doctor, you get a prescription, you go to the pharmacy, get it filled, and the insurance covers it. Healthcare system, you're getting cannabis the same way you're getting antibiotics.

Jamie Pearson :
And that means that the government's paying for your cannabis in those circumstances. That's not always true. There are qualifying conditions and not Qualifying conditions, but we don't even have that option here in the right, you know, so that's one of the things, I think if you're in the cannabis world, you got to remember that the real cannabis world in Germany is pharma. It's not just medical. So you have to have good manufacturing practices and certifications. And jumping in requires very specified training, licensing, expensive grows. Now, after I've been in all the EU GMP grows in Europe, I come into grows in the us. Many of them don't have you suit up, they don't have you in walk off mats.

Jamie Pearson :
They're. You're bringing whatever pests in from the outside. And. And then I know I'm. It's amateur hour, you know, and then I have all these people that will have me tour their grow and they're like, isn't it great? And I'm like, all right, it's good. You know, we have some of that GMP type grows. I've been in many of them in the us. I don't want to throw shade on all us growers, but I will say pharmaceutical growing is different than medical growing in the US for sure.

Greg Dunaway :
Yeah. And I guess one question I to follow up on that was between your time at ICBC and your time at Tallman this year, you know, what was, what either surprised you or what was your big, you know, takeaway from this year? What, what, what did you leave with? Because again, it's such a gathering of, of people from across the world. What, what kind of was your takeaway for 2025?

Jamie Pearson :
There's just a ton of opportunity. One example in the medical market reported to the government. 10% of Germans reported to the government that they use cannabis.

Greg Dunaway :
Wow.

Jamie Pearson :
In that math, that's 8.2 million people. But there were only 700,000 people in the medical system last year. So that's a big gap of opportunity. And part of it is pulling these cannabis users out of the illicit market and into the legal market. The part that I think's crazy is that the legal pharmaceutical cannabis in Germany is less than the illicit market. It costs less money. Why? I mean, it's hard to fathom because in America, all the illicit market undercuts the, the legal market because they don't have to lab test, they don't have to pay taxes and all of that. So you are.

Jamie Pearson :
You automatically think you're at a disadvantage. But what the German government did that was really smart is they allowed and actually required import. In the very beginning of the German program, you weren't allowed to cultivate. There were only, you know, a handful of companies that were given cultivation licenses in country because they were trying to conserve power. You know, the war in Ukraine put a big damper on Germany's ability to access oil. And you know, that, that made powering Germany, keeping the lights on literally an issue. So they weren't going to add that burden by legalizing a bunch of indoor grows. So they set up an import system.

Jamie Pearson :
Well, now you've got people importing cannabis from places like Costa Rica and Colombia where their, their ability to pry, you know, grow quality cannabis at sub 50 cents a gram. Nobody can compete with them, but they come in and undercut the illicit market and that. And it's an example of a way that you can do that. You can eliminate your illicit market. It's really tough to be a drug dealer in Germany right now if your only drug is cannabis.

Greg Dunaway :
I think I diversify. No, I'm just teasing.

Jamie Pearson :
That market's still thriving right now because a lot of people haven't entered into the, the medical market. And big reason for that is not everybody wants to let the government in on their business. You know, there is still an illicit market. But I think those social clubs are going to be definitely an answer for that.

Greg Dunaway :
Yeah. And, and we should add that Jamie and I are, we're going to offhand mansions, mention social clubs here, but you know, pick up the phone and call Jamie or bug us on LinkedIn. We can explain a little more of it is social clubs are a very, I would call it limited way for there to be adult wreck in Germany as well, a parallel track. And I know Jamie, your time is, is, is very valuable. So I have a few more things I want to talk about. If you want to ask about social clubs, call one of us. One thing, that one thing that I'm very curious about from your perspective is there is a raging debate in the United States about hemp versus THC right now. And I know, I know.

Greg Dunaway :
So look, let me put my biases on table for everybody. I am a craft cultivator. Part of what I do is craft cultivation here in Arizona. My perspective on hemp is probably vastly different from a lot of others. Like, you know, the fact that you can order, you know, THC across state lines is, is not a great thing for my business. However, I'm also of the mindset and I'm curious where you fall on this, that the more we can normalize cannabis, the better it is for everybody. So there's a lot going on. Jimmy, you know, what are you seeing on this hemp versus thc? Where are you falling? You know, what are you seeing?

Jamie Pearson :
Doing a lot of work with hemp beverages. And, and you know, like, this is one of them. I love this product, by the way.

Greg Dunaway :
Cool.

Jamie Pearson :
I really, really bullish on hemp beverage. I've got two kids who are gen zers that don't drink alcohol. I think that's, that's definitely a trend. We're starting to see the hemp beverages crush in the alternative to alcohol market. And I think it's where we're headed. And I'm with you. I do believe it's the same plant. I believe what we're all fighting for is adults to have access to the plant, to the miracles of the plant.

Jamie Pearson :
And so if you have figured out how to exploit the farm, farm bill loophole, God bless you.

Greg Dunaway :
God bless you.

Jamie Pearson :
You know, and I understand the cannabis part. You know, it's very similar. In Montana, we have, we have a similar debate where people go out and they spend 1, 2, 3, 4, $5 million to get a liquor license in Montana. And with a liquor license, you can often get a gambling license because we've got legal gambling here. We got card rooms, people playing poker, we got machine, you know, all that stuff. We got a casino on every corner here in Billings. Then all of a sudden, craft brewers popped up out of everywhere and started having these microbreweries and the liquor license people were like, hey, wait a Second, I paid $5 million for my license and you're letting them cannibalize. You know, my customer, now my customers are all going to drink that beer and they're not coming to my bar or my restaurant.

Jamie Pearson :
And there, there became a battle. And what the state of Montana did, and we are one of those weird states where the only place you can buy liquor is at a state run liquor store. They don't sell liquor anywhere. You can just get beer and wine in grocery stores, but not liquor. They were like, okay, you're right. So microbreweries can only be open till 8pm and they can only sell you. You know, at the beginning it was like they could only sell you two beers and you had to have a wristband and it was a whole thing. And they were saying to the liquor license holders, hey, we get it.

Jamie Pearson :
You, you've worked over 5 mil for your license. We're going to curtail the amount that we allow these craft breweries, you know, to operate as retail establishments. But understand they're bringing jobs, they're, they're brewing Good beer. We're winning gold medals all over the brewers and billings. This is an industry, it's a cottage industry. We're gonna, we're gonna let people make money from it, but this is how we're gonna do the balancing act. What's happening in cannabis is you've got these cannabis people that have spent 2, 3, 4, 5 million dollars for their licenses. They're jumping through these massive hoops, paying stupid taxes, doing all this lab testing, metric biotrack, it's, it's a hoop jumping exercise extraordinaire.

Jamie Pearson :
And then hemp comes in just like these microbreweries, and they, they're, they're shipping you joints through the u. S. Mail, which I love, by the way.

Greg Dunaway :
I'd love to do it too.

Jamie Pearson :
And the way I've understood it is I didn't come up with this, but, and I don't know who did, but I like it. And it's that all bananas turn yellow when they're ripe and they all start as green. But in cannabis, the banana has to be yellow when you test it. And in hemp, it can be green when you test it. And when the banana is yellow, it's cannabis. When the banana is green, it's hemp. And you are allowed to test your thca flower up to 30 days before you harvest. It's always going to be a green banana.

Jamie Pearson :
When your coa test is captured when the banana is green, and then the banana will apparently turn yellow and you've got cannabis. But because your coa says it's hemp, you're off to the races. I'm like, I don't care if you paid $5 million for your cannabis license. How's that working for you? If you're not making money and you're doing this gigantic hemp jumping exercise parallel process, rather than try to crab pot them down back into the boiling water, why don't you lift them up and freaking join them? That's what I'm thinking. Why don't we join forces and recognize we have legal THC in the US right now, but we're fighting to get rid of it. That makes no sense.

Greg Dunaway :
Excuse me, Your language is just fine. I, I actually, it, initially, I, I was, I was very like, oh, these guys are gonna leapfrog us. But in the end, I think, you know, rising tides, and again, into the extent that, the extent that the legislation could come together to be benefit, everybody would be great. God only knows I'm not hopeful about that in D.C. but, and I know.

Jamie Pearson :
I know that the, the Yaba sentiment out there is. Yeah, but all these, you know, synthetic compounds and things like that. Look, there's a lot of really smart PhDs out there that are better able to have that conversation. I am talking strictly about the THCA flower, the Delta nine, Right. Cannabis. I'm not talking about HHC and all that other stuff, right?

Greg Dunaway :
No, we're not. No.

Jamie Pearson :
And I'm not an expert in it. And I, I'm not going to weigh in on it. I do know that, you know, everyone's like, well, what about the children? And what about the, what about the. I'm like, what about opiates? And what about tobacco? What about, what about alcohol? Everyone's. Everyone's doing what they want to do as adults. I'm saying, what about the adults that want to make different decisions and we're going to protect them from the plant? That's this stuff I don't like.

Greg Dunaway :
I hear you, Jamie. I want to close us out with you and I doing a little exercise together. I think it'll be really cool for people, which is when you look at, let's say we've got. I know on this podcast we get a ton of cultivators, a ton of operators. You know, when you look at the next five to seven years, I'd love to go out on a hopeful note. We know it's going to be compressed. Let's say that you are giving. Just for today, just for today, you're giving some free New Holland advice for some of our domestic operators and domestic cultivators.

Greg Dunaway :
You know, what do you, what do you want to say about the next three to five years? What should they be focused on?

Jamie Pearson :
Quality margin, period. If you can grow high quality cannabis and have a high margin with it, you can get your costs down. You can be competitive forever.

Greg Dunaway :
I love it. I love it. And for all those people, same exercise. There's probably some people, Jamie, this may be their first time understanding what the, what the international market could be. What are some good first steps that, that people who are either operators, even cultivators, or just, just those ancillary businesses like equipment. What are some good first steps they can see to see might how they may fit into the puzzle that is international cannabis?

Jamie Pearson :
I mean, I think what you have to do is, is show up, you got to meet the people, you got to ask the questions. It is, you know, when they say that your network is your net worth. If you want to dive into a market, do a little bit of research ahead of time, find out people that are operating in that market, talk to people that are operating in that market and then go get in the market and meet people. And the reality is this has been my experience. Cannabis people around the world have a few things in common and one of them I have found is an open heartedness that maybe comes from being a cannabis user. I just think there's a lot of empathy and a lot of, a lot of come along for the ride spirit. And so if you go in knowing that you're not going to be encountered with the who moved my cheese? And why are you asking? You're just not going to get that people are so friendly in the international markets. And if you come in and really do your research and meet the people, you know, you got to get into the flow and you know flow, not force and follow the flow in, in the world.

Jamie Pearson :
That, the way, the way you interact with the world in America, you can interact with the world the same way in international, but you got to come in and be a little bit respectful too. I will say one of the things I do notice is that, you know, people are like, well, I'm a cultivator from California, or I'm a cultivator from Arizona. I've been growing good weed for 20 years. And that might be true and you might be awesome, but you probably have a lot to learn about that culture, how those growers think, what strains, you know, the, the consumers in that environment have a taste for. And if you go in with an open heart yourself, the exchange of energy is usually pretty magical.

Greg Dunaway :
I love ending on a magical note. Jamie, you and I could talk for hours about just the things that we lightly touched on today. I know you're busy, I know you're just back from international travel. Thank you so much for the time today. Absolutely loved every second of it. I really appreciate you being here.

Jamie Pearson :
You're the best, Greg. Anytime.

Greg Dunaway :
Awesome. Thanks again.

Jamie Pearson :
Okay.